After their conversation with Dr. Che “Rhymefest” Smith, Amber and Tom return to a provocative line attributed to Quincy Jones: “When money walks in the room, God walks out.” Is that true – or does money simply expose what already has our attention?
Drawing on listener responses, spiritual traditions, and pop-culture moments like “We Are the World” and “Man in the Mirror,” they explore whether money is a rival to faith or just a tool – and why the real question may be what sits at the center of our lives.
They consider real-world dilemmas: What do you do when funding threatens to soften your message? How do you use influence without losing integrity? And how might PEMDAS (that’s right: Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally) provide us with a roadmap?
It’s a thoughtful, wide-ranging conversation about money, power, and the courage it takes to keep meaning at the center – especially when the stakes get high, and the commas increase.
For more episodes and info, visit Money, Meet Meaning.
This transcript was produced using AI tools and may include minor transcription errors.
Thorny Questions — When Money Walks In, Does God Walk Out?
TOM LEVINSON: Welcome to Money Meet Meaning. I’m Tom Levinson.
AMBER HACKER: And I am co-host Amber Hacker.
LEVINSON: We are a podcast that explores the surprising, practical relevance of the world’s spiritual traditions on our life with money.
HACKER: Welcome back, y’all.
LEVINSON: Last time we talked with the artist, writer, and public servant Dr. Che Rhymefest Smith.
HACKER: He is a Grammy- and Academy Award-winning songwriter — co-writer of “Jesus Walks” and “Glory” — and now serves on the Chicago Board of Education, which oversees a $10 billion budget, that’s billion with a B, for more than 300,000 students, including two of mine.
LEVINSON: And when we asked Rhymefest about how art, money, and faith intersect, he gave us an answer that I would describe as bold, beautiful, and also a little uncomfortable.
HACKER: It came when Tom brought up something from the legendary producer Quincy Jones. Quincy Jones once said: “When money walks in the room, God walks out.”
LEVINSON: And Rhymefest’s response? Tremendous.
HACKER: Oh my gosh, it was seriously tremendous. Really good.
LEVINSON: But Amber, I want to wait and play his response in just a minute. First — what do you think about this idea that when money walks in, God walks out?
HACKER: Ooh, I have to say disagree, Tom. I think that money is one of the really important resources that God entrusts us with. I think God is a generous God — he gave his son Jesus to die for us, for humanity. He has given us and entrusted us with these resources: money, time. The Bible says time, talent, treasure, right? And I think back to season one, when we had a conversation with Jesse Mecham who’s the founder of YNAB. He talked about this idea of money being kind of one with who we are. That might take it a little too far for me — but I’m not on the other end of the spectrum either. With all due respect to Quincy Jones, who is just a legend, I don’t believe that God walks out when money walks into the room. What do you think, Tom?
LEVINSON: Well, I don’t know how often Rhymefest, Quincy Jones, and Maimonides go in the same sentence, but I’m going to do it. Because Maimonides — towering Jewish sage, rabbinic authority, writer, physician, a Renaissance man centuries before the Renaissance — he had this concept in one of his works. As a Jew, you couldn’t give positive attributes to God. You couldn’t say, “God is X, God is Y.” The best you could do in defining God was to say: “I can’t tell you what God is, but I can tell you what God isn’t.” That comes to be understood as the negative theology of Maimonides — the best we can do in describing God and God’s infiniteness is to describe what God isn’t. So I was struck by Quincy Jones’ quote because I was thinking: Is there a room that God could actually walk out of? And if we’re not thinking about God literally walking out — if we’re thinking about that as a metaphor — are there spaces that God doesn’t inhabit? Are there spaces that are devoid of God?
HACKER: Maybe. Maybe when — as some Christians, myself included, say — when we give the enemy a seat at the table. And by the enemy, I very much mean the devil or Satan.
LEVINSON: But then God isn’t in the room?
HACKER: Maybe. That’s a really good question.
LEVINSON: I mean, isn’t God still in the room? It’s just that that’s where the wrestling match is. That’s the struggle.
HACKER: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I hear what you’re saying, Tom. Look, let’s go back and hear what Rhymefest said about this.
LEVINSON: (to Smith) Do you think what Quincy Jones said is true — that when money walks in the room, God walks out?
CHE RHYMEFEST SMITH: Number one, God never walks out. Is God afraid of money? Is money more powerful than God? Is God so offended by a manmade creation? And money ain’t nothing but an ideology — this is not even a real thing. I had the same anxiety with money that I did without money. So when you say when money walks in the room, God walks out — man, when money ain’t in the room, you sometimes feel hopeless. So the real issue is not the external thing. That’s the tool. The real issue is where you’re at. God walked out a long time ago if money could affect your center.
HACKER: All right, so Rhymefest and I agree on this one.
LEVINSON: OK. You know what I want to introduce into the conversation, Amber?
HACKER: Uh-oh. Go ahead, Tom.
LEVINSON: I have a word that is going to send you hurtling back to algebra class in eighth grade.
HACKER: Oh no. OK, go.
LEVINSON: PEMDAS. Do you remember PEMDAS?
HACKER: Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally. Yeah, yeah — the order of operations.
LEVINSON: Which, by the way, for listeners — I just high-fived Amber. It was thrilling.
HACKER: Yes, and I actually have an Aunt Sally — she’s married to my Uncle Steve — so I really remember that one.
LEVINSON: Wonderful. So PEMDAS is used to help us solve complex algebraic problems. It gives us a roadmap — an order of operations — for how to solve complex questions. First what’s in parentheses, then exponents, and so on. If you know PEMDAS, you can figure out the problem. So I think Quincy Jones was offering this aphorism with a wink and a nod — I don’t think he was saying there’s a room that God physically walks out of. I think what Quincy Jones is saying, in his most PEMDAS tone, is that there are times where money assumes such a level of priority in a space that suddenly other really important values and principles sort of dissipate. God can lose priority in the conversation — and in that space, God can walk out.
HACKER: Yeah, so what you’re saying is: is money at the P, at the parentheses? Or is it lower in the priority list, closer to Aunt Sally? I love that you related this to seventh-grade algebra, Tom. Gold star. And I think what really resonated with me about what Smith said is this idea that money is a tool. If money really affects your center, that’s the issue. If it’s not in the right priority order — if we’re not using it as a tool, as Smith suggests — that’s where things can really get out of whack.
LEVINSON: That’s right. And part of why I think Quincy Jones was saying this with a knowing wink is because — you know, if you’ve watched that Netflix special on the making of “We Are the World,” Quincy Jones is at the beating heart of that project.
HACKER: I had that record growing up. Like, it was an actual record.
LEVINSON: I sang it in fifth-grade chorus. And since we’re on fifth-grade chorus — we also sang Whitney Houston’s “Greatest Love of All.” Shout out to Whitney, one of my favorite artists and entertainers in the world. But Quincy Jones assembled so many of the biggest stars of the time.
HACKER: Yeah, Cyndi Lauper was there, Michael Jackson was there.
LEVINSON: Michael Jackson and Lionel Richie co-wrote the song. And why did they do it? Because they were trying to bring attention and much-needed resources to relieve the famine in Ethiopia. So this is work where they brought all of popular culture — the biggest singers and entertainers — to serve a higher purpose. In today’s dollars, they raised something like over $200 million for food aid and relief. Quincy Jones was at the center of that effort. He was a creative weaver of money and meaning into pop culture and commerce.
HACKER: So Tom, let’s hear what our listeners thought. We put the question to them: when money walks in, does God walk out? And we got a lot of different responses.
LISTENER 1: I really like this question from Quincy Jones and I think it invites an interesting conversation. I think I understand what he’s getting at, although I probably don’t fully agree with exactly as it’s stated. I don’t think God walks out of any room that we’re in. To quote a modern-day apostle: “God is in relentless pursuit of us at all times.” Elder Kearon said that. I think sometimes money, when it walks into the room, might distract us from God — but he won’t ever walk out on us.
LEVINSON: Haley sent us this message.
LISTENER 2 (HALEY): I definitely resonate with the wisdom in Quincy Jones’ words. Money and wealth have fueled all types of systemic inequity and deep divides, and have further dehumanized our neighbors based on the haves and the have-nots. I know that my tradition teaches us tzedakah — a commitment to giving, which often does come through money — in order for tikkun olam, the mission to repair the world, to be true. In its best form, I feel like this practice plants deep roots in me to see giving not only as a godly duty, but simply as a natural state of being. It energizes compassion, commitment, and accountability in those who are going to use their resources to reach across divides and lift each other up. And in that way, maybe God wouldn’t leave the room.
LEVINSON: Thank you so much to everybody who chimed in.
HACKER: I love our listeners, Tom. They put such good thought into these questions. We heard from Listener 1 this idea that money can be a distraction — but that doesn’t necessarily mean she thinks God would walk out of the room.
LEVINSON: I think Listener 1 is completely on the PEMDAS train. Is God and our faith and our spiritual priorities the lead singer, or are they a backup singer? Or are they in row H of the balcony? It’s a question of what’s the emphasis, what’s the spotlight on, where are our priorities. What do you think about Haley’s take?
HACKER: I really appreciated Haley’s take — naming tzedakah and tikkun olam and how that practice is so important for her tradition. And I thought it was beautiful that she used this idea of planting roots. What fruit does that bear? When you’re committed to this practice of giving, you’re putting your resources where your heart is, which is what the Bible talks about.
LEVINSON: Good fruit.
HACKER: Good fruit.
LEVINSON: Delicious, tasty fruit. Coming up in just a minute, we’re going to take the thorny question and start making some thorny question babies with it, Amber.
HACKER: You know, Tom, I keep coming back to how Smith said he had the same anxiety with money that he had without it. Because our culture teaches something very different — if you have more money, it’ll be better; it’ll solve your problems; it’ll heal your relationships.
LEVINSON: More is always better.
HACKER: And Smith is saying something pretty countercultural there.
LEVINSON: Yeah. It’s like he’s saying money doesn’t necessarily change you or give you more peace — it just amplifies what’s already there.
HACKER: I mean, that’s not exactly a concept you learn in business school.
LEVINSON: No — it’s theology, therapy, economics, and personal finance all rolled into one. But I do think there are opportunities for business schools to delve more deeply into these questions, and at the same time for divinity schools and seminaries to introduce more content around people’s financial lives — thinking about how the financial world and our spiritual lives intersect and interweave.
HACKER: So let’s lean into that wrestling.
LEVINSON: Great. And by the way — this is not financial advice. These are the kinds of “what would you do” practical questions that reveal where our hearts live.
HACKER: All right, let’s get to the thorny questions.
LEVINSON: You pray for a big break. The big break comes, but the success changes how people treat you. Do you shrink from it to stay humble, or do you own it as a blessing?
HACKER: I think you’ve got to stay humble. There’s a great book called Ego Is the Enemy by Ryan Holiday. And Rick Warren wrote one of the best-selling Christian books of all time — The Purpose Driven Life — and the first line is: “It’s not about you.” That’s one of the core ideas of my tradition and many other religious and spiritual traditions. It’s not about you. So I think you have to stay humble. Get grounded, maybe go live on a farm in Maine like our fabulous producer Jay — but you stay humble.
LEVINSON: I love that. That’s one of those central values that courses through every spiritual tradition — we are not the center. Of course, we’re the center of our own experience, but there’s a lot more out there: God, other people, the natural world. All of these things have to be in balance.
HACKER: Totally agree. OK, I’ve got one for you, Tom. Someone offers to bankroll your dream project — but they expect you to soften your message. Do you take the deal, or do you protect your voice?
LEVINSON: I mean — what did Quincy Jones do with “We Are the World”? He didn’t soften his voice, he amplified it. He blew it up. And remember, at this moment in time, MTV was playing basically all white performers. Michael Jackson’s Thriller had completely blown up that model. The fact that Quincy Jones brought all of these performers — white, Black, men, women, older, younger — into this service project, this ministry. You don’t dull down your message. You go full steam ahead.
HACKER: Mmm. That’s good, Tom.
LEVINSON: That’s good. OK, I’ve got one for you, Amber. You have built influence that could open doors for others — but using that power means risking your own comfort. Do you use it anyway?
HACKER: That’s a really interesting question. We all like being comfortable, right? But some of the most powerful moments in my life have been when I was pushed out of my comfort zone — professionally or personally. And it doesn’t have to be 2 miles past your comfort zone. It could be 2 inches or 2 feet. There’s a great book called Give and Take by Adam Grant — the idea that there are people who are givers, and how, counterintuitively, the more you give, the more it actually benefits you. So yes, using your gifts to open doors for others can be risky — but maybe it could benefit not only the recipient but the giver too.
LEVINSON: For sure. That comes right out of Scripture. I think this is Isaiah 58 — one of the things Isaiah teaches is that when you do this to help someone else, your own garden is watered. Not the other person’s garden. Your garden.
HACKER: Mm-hmm. So Tom — these questions aren’t really about money, are they? They’re really about meaning. About whether success deepens your faith or distracts you from it.
LEVINSON: Yeah. Every tradition has some version of that struggle. And the question is: when the world finally hands you what you asked for, can you still recognize yourself in the mirror?
HACKER: Which brings us, as always, to a little wisdom from the sacred texts. Tom, what have you got?
LEVINSON: OK, I have a very brief homily before the sacred text. We’re staying with Quincy Jones in the mid-’80s. Quincy and Michael Jackson had the most incredible run — The Wiz, then Off the Wall, great success, then of course Thriller, intergalactic success that totally changes the game. And mid-’80s, after “We Are the World,” Michael is working on his follow-up album. It’s taking a couple of years, and Quincy realizes Michael could use a few more songs. So Quincy invites a bunch of songwriters over to pitch material and says: “If you’re going to write for this album, you’ve got to give me hits.” A couple of young writers go back, work on something, call Quincy excitedly — “Hey, we think we have a really good idea.” They play it over the phone. Quincy hears it: “This is something.” Michael hears it: “Yeah, that’s pretty amazing. I’d love to put my own touches on it.” And then in the studio, Quincy says: “You know what this song could really use?” And he calls Andraé Crouch — great gospel singer — and brings in the Andraé Crouch Gospel Choir. And that song becomes both the anthem Michael and Quincy were looking for, and probably one of the most extraordinary expressions of the sacred-and-money-meet-meaning ethos in popular culture.
That song, of course, is “Man in the Mirror.”
Our sacred text today comes from “Man in the Mirror,” from the Bad album:
I’m gonna make a change, for once in my life / It’s gonna feel real good, gonna make a difference, gonna make it right / As I turned up the collar on my favorite winter coat / This wind is blowing my mind / I see the kids in the street, with not enough to eat / Who am I to be blind, pretending not to see their needs
And then the chorus — please sing along at home:
I’m starting with the man in the mirror / I’m asking him to change his ways / And no message could have been any clearer: / If you want to make the world a better place, take a look at yourself and then make a change.
HACKER: Beautiful. That’s a good way to end.
LEVINSON: Thanks for another great Thorny Questions episode, Amber.
HACKER: Thanks for making this a better place — for you and for me, Tom.
LEVINSON: This is Money Meet Meaning. Thanks for listening.
HACKER: I’m Amber Hacker.
LEVINSON: And I’m Tom Levinson. Big thanks to our wonderful guest, the indomitable Dr. Che Rhymefest Smith.
HACKER: Money Meet Meaning is a podcast by Interfaith America, Appella Wealth, and LK Advisors, distributed by Religion News Service and the Faith and Work Initiative at Princeton University.
LEVINSON: Elizabeth Windom is the supervising producer. Elizabeth Villa is our story producer. Julia Windom is the editor. Corenna Roozeboom and Hannah Snoeyink are associate producers.
HACKER: Senior producer is Jonathan Woodward.
LEVINSON: Our theme music is by Martin Fowler.
HACKER: Schuyler Roozeboom designed our look.
LEVINSON: If you have thoughts, questions, or stories about your own perspectives on money, wisdom, and faith traditions — and/or you just want to talk more about Quincy Jones — you can email us at [email protected].
HACKER: And please share us with a friend, or frenemies, or neighbors, or family. Share widely.
LEVINSON: Money Meet Meaning is produced by Windhaven Productions, Special Thanks, and Bluejay Atlantic.